Forum:Nations/Factions
Hazza-the-Fox 04:31, August 29, 2011 (UTC)Hazza-the-Fox Potential Merging of Nations: Hazza-the-Fox 06:35, February 21, 2012 (UTC)In THIS section, we consider the possibility of merging some of the nations listed below together (or do another mishmash swap-around of units). The reason for this is just an emergency option, if it becomes too hard to figure out what some of the nations actually need as their 'supportive' units, while other nations risk being slightly less distinctive with similar duplicate units filling in their jobs; Possible Mergers by Unit Combo Hazza-the-Fox 06:35, February 21, 2012 (UTC) I think I'll list some possible mergers based on unit compatability. Note that the nations may not necessarily merge together lore-wise- and some nations may be scrapped from the list- or alternatively may get a new rotation of units. Note that not all- or even none of these proposals need to be considered. But it simply serves as another option if the most 'complimentary' unit to a side is a strong duplicate of another nation's primary unit... German Nashorn + Italy Mech; Hazza-the-Fox 06:35, February 21, 2012 (UTC)This could pose an interesting combination- a slow but sturdy and long-ish ranged anti-tank gun, and a light speedy skirmish small area-effect unit. Poland gains the MAgnetron-Grinder Hazza-the-Fox 06:35, February 21, 2012 (UTC) This would be a very interesting combination- the close-ranged sabateur and the long-ranged 'defender-remover'- the Magnetron shifting away defending vehicles, allowing the Ivan to slip past; or, the Magnetron pulls the enemies over a minefield- even the simple ability of planting mines in the path of attackers attempting to stop the Magnetron. Most interestingly, both units are highly deadly and build upon layers of special-function shenadigans, but neither has a direct attack that can cover the other- which could be a good thing- as the 'regular' units will still have some work to do. or A Soviet nation gains the Magnetron and Werewolf Hazza-the-Fox 06:35, February 21, 2012 (UTC) Another combination of two strongly different units- coincidentally, both have no real 'attack'- but both have the capacity to munch up enemies up close. BUT actually, having thought about it, it might not actually work so well- as both units are ultimately going to start 'competing' each other of how to remove the threat, with zero probability of complimenting each other when the player gets a preference. Consequences of these mergers; Hazza-the-Fox 06:35, February 21, 2012 (UTC) In the case of the Allies, were we to go ahead with it- it would simply mean Italy and either France or Germany may have to merge; But for the Soviets, it raises a bit more of a problem; In either case, as we have a lot of European nations and very few Asian nations, Yugoslavia may need to be merged, and the "Werewolf" would need to go to Korea (though its name may start looking a bit odd in an Asian country rather than Europe). Some things to think about. But again- only if adding new units is getting tough and this starts looking like a better idea. VolteMetalic 14:19, February 21, 2012 (UTC): I think it is fine as it is now. Hazza-the-Fox 06:40, February 22, 2012 (UTC) Agreed- since I added the German bike-grenadier I realized that a more explicit close-range attack unit better suits them, and the mech is free to specialize more once again! (And in turn, trying to augment the Soviets would mean one less Soviet side to Allied side). So yes- I think we can scrap this merger idea. Latest Revision of Nations and Flags *Germany *Japan *Britainia *Korea *Cuba *"Australia" *"America" Discussion; Hazza-the-Fox 14:59, February 19, 2012 (UTC) Ok, I've started the latest revision; We'll go through the nations each and quickly describe their name and flag, one at a time; (note- the current formatting may need to change to underneath the flag if we start turning each flag into a conversation- but at the moment they're in this interesting format). VolteMetalic 11:56, February 20, 2012 (UTC): Ok, I like the format too :) 'Greater Germany' (aka Greater Germany)- Basically the early 20thC Reich War flag (more Weimar-style)- but giving the look of some alternate militant group attempted an uprising without Hitler's presence. That aside, blood-red is WAY overused for alt-reality German flags- the modern german flag looked odd with the bars over it- haven't tried blue though. Germany includes all of Austria, and all the pre-WW1 territories. Long standing as a world-hostile dominant superpower- now needing to pool Allied resources to resist overpowering Soviet world invasion. VolteMetalic 11:56, February 20, 2012 (UTC): I like the modern yellow/red/black version, and this flag looks little... boring, when being just blakc and white :) For the name, make "Greater Germany" I suppose. Hazza-the-Fox 01:15, February 21, 2012 (UTC) I did try the yellow/black/red- looked a bit strange- I could try yellow top and red bottom, meeting the black lines at the borders.... Also, the cross over a blue backdrop actually looks strangely not bad either- I'll submit twin-copies and you can see what you think ;) VolteMetalic 14:56, February 21, 2012 (UTC): The blue version looks better! As it more implies Germany is one of the founders. Hazza-the-Fox 06:38, February 22, 2012 (UTC) Awesome! Blue it is! 'Japan' (aka Imperial Japan aka Empire of the Rising Sun)- simply put- the empire had never been defeated, and retained the rising-sun flag. VolteMetalic 11:56, February 20, 2012 (UTC): No flaws, its perfect. Hazza-the-Fox 00:46, February 21, 2012 (UTC) Agreed! 'Great Britain' (aka Imperial Britania, Great Britainia)- No reason to change this outstanding flag too much as the nation has remained largely as-is- I experimented with the blues (more Scottish-style- though I could make it more electric blue instead. VolteMetalic 11:56, February 20, 2012 (UTC): I think that the normal blue can be used. Hazza-the-Fox 00:45, February 21, 2012 (UTC) Agreed- I'll give it a try. VolteMetalic 14:56, February 21, 2012 (UTC): Thats correct! 'Korea' (aka United Korea)- This one was easy- just merged North and South Korean flags together (plus, there's more red- helping anchoring the flag mildly to the Soviet side) VolteMetalic 11:56, February 20, 2012 (UTC): The center looks little weird, with this mix... maybe just red? Hazza-the-Fox 00:45, February 21, 2012 (UTC) I could stamp the North-Korean Star over the front (and/or the less 'spirally' yinyang you see in the South Korean Flag- though I think overall it should stay- as the symbol is THE symbol for Korea (both North and South use it in their government flags- merely only the North use the other one for their civil/national flag). VolteMetalic 14:56, February 21, 2012 (UTC): Hmmm... Hazza-the-Fox 07:04, February 22, 2012 (UTC) It IS a tough one- I'll try some alternate tricks and put them all up; 'Cuba' (aka Cuban-controlled Carribean Zone)- Cuba has grown a lot more powerful in this reality by annexing the other Carribiean islands and getting arms from Yuri's Soviet Union. I can't think of how to alter the flag, but am open to suggestions (though I'd like to overall retain most of it) VolteMetalic 11:56, February 20, 2012 (UTC): Yeah, I think it is fine as it is, amybe jsut add there a "hammer and sickle" maybe. Hazza-the-Fox 00:42, February 21, 2012 (UTC) I'd agree- I'll see what I can do. 'South Pacific Commonwealth of Australia, New Zealand and Oceania' ' ' Australia-NewZealand-Alliance? South Pacific Commonwealth? No idea on the name, but its Australia- New Zealand centric alliance controlling the South Pacific. The flag is greatly different- as luckily nobody in the world outside our area knows what any of our flags look like, I thought of inventing a completely new one! Technically the lower-left star is supposed to be the 7-9-sided commonwealth star- but I'm lazy so the 5-sided star can be a place-holder :P VolteMetalic 11:56, February 20, 2012 (UTC): Well, as you said, I am not very familiar with the flags in that area, but it looks it could have some more details. Hazza-the-Fox 00:42, February 21, 2012 (UTC) I was thinking of some symbol along the middle of that red-and-white stripe to add some more interest. (oh- and the South-pacific commonwealth countries generally have the same flag- dark blue, with the British Flag in the top-left corner (same fashion as America's star-part on their own flag)- below is the "commonwealth star" and to the top-right is usually the "Southern Cross" constellation or a badge. As I said- they're almost the exact same :P Anyway- good name- I reckon a good abreviation could be SPC- (as fully abreviated its- SPCANZO ?!?!) VolteMetalic 14:56, February 21, 2012 (UTC): Well, I must admit it sounds weird the "nickname" :D I dont know how to make it uniwue and interesting :D Hazza-the-Fox 07:04, February 22, 2012 (UTC) It is a tough one sadly- the whole damn lot of these flags are just stars >< I'll keep trying some ideas; VolteMetalic 12:03, February 22, 2012 (UTC): Ok, good luck :) For name, what wass it before the "South Pacific Commonwealth"? Hazza-the-Fox 13:39, February 22, 2012 (UTC) "ANZ" = Australia/New Zealand (nice enough- but it's the exact name of one of our banks- not that anyone outside Australia would know this). And ANZAC = Australia/New Zealand Army Corps (the real life army corps that Australian/New Zealand soldiers fought for in WW2 and WW1- and unlike other countries, their memory is actually not so much 'happily' celebrated, but their loss mourned with regret). Technically speaking, an alliance with Australia and New Zealand would be called Anzac- though it wouldn't include Oceania, technically). which means potentially *ANZA = Australia/New Zealand Alliance *ANZO = Australia/New Zealand/Oceania *ANZOA = Australia/New Zealand/Oceania Alliance *ANZOC = Australia/New Zealand/Oceania Confederacy VolteMetalic 09:15, February 23, 2012 (UTC): Maybe ANZOC. it sounds like a possible word :D 'Czechoslovakia' ' ' (Czechoslovakia as seen pre German-invasions)- Any ideas for the flag? (given the circumstances of alt reality being a huge arms stand-off at the German border as an up-till-recently non-Soviet socialist nation that had mostly been simply allied with neighboring countries standing off against Germany). VolteMetalic 11:56, February 20, 2012 (UTC): :D:D:D Take the flag which we had during "First Republic", so the one we ahd sicne 1918. The territory will be Czech, Moravia, Silesia (all are now Czech Republic), Slovakia and Zakarpattia Oblast (now in Ukraine, it belogned to us till 1939). Hazza-the-Fox 01:15, February 21, 2012 (UTC) Awesome- I'll see what I can do! VolteMetalic 14:56, February 21, 2012 (UTC): Can you add to the blue field the piece from Slovakian flag? The symbol of white cross with the red and blue field. The blue is of different color than Czech's blue Hazza-the-Fox 07:04, February 22, 2012 (UTC) Ah, nice! Yes I most definitely will! VolteMetalic 12:03, February 22, 2012 (UTC): Hmm, is it just me, or the blue is too light to what (Czech) we have? Hazza-the-Fox 13:25, February 22, 2012 (UTC) Yes it is- I've generally been using the same blue- but can happily town it down (especially with the badge going in) VolteMetalic 09:15, February 23, 2012 (UTC): Hmm... ok :) 'Ukraine' (Ukraine, and probably merging with other neighboring countries of the region like Moldova)- This is probably the toughest one, as Ukraine gains and maintains independence back in WW2, and had mostly been trying to expand in its region and control the Black Sea from Turkey, Russia and other countries that border it. So wondering what its flag would look like (and an observation- blue and yellow are by far the most happy-looking, Allied-esque colors A flag could get)! VolteMetalic 11:56, February 20, 2012 (UTC): Well, yellow isnt used in any flag here at all :D Yellow can be a Soviet one too. Hazza-the-Fox 01:15, February 21, 2012 (UTC) True- any ideas for symbols over the front? Perhaps a gear-badge, a hammer and sickle or something? VolteMetalic 14:56, February 21, 2012 (UTC): Gear? No, but probably the hammer and sickle. Hazza-the-Fox 07:04, February 22, 2012 (UTC) I'll try both anyway and see how it goes (as some more modern-created nations actually have a gear-and-wheat/machette instead of hammer-and-sickle)- plus, being the terrible person I am, I thought some hint to nuclear power/industry could be a nice twist (maybe a yellow sun sphere over the blue sky too) VolteMetalic 12:03, February 22, 2012 (UTC): That could work too :D 'Poland' (East-Baltic Commonwealth of Poland, Belarus, Lithuania and possibly the Kalingrad sector of Russia)- I thought the simplest solution is to take that old white-and-burgundy flag, and stamp some symbol on the front (badge, shield, star, hammer and sickle, possibly). Tempted to use that old eagle badge- though it may start overlapping both with the Allied Flag, and potential other countries that also have eagle flags. VolteMetalic 11:56, February 20, 2012 (UTC): White and red are fine, but addign something also soudns good. And even it is my neighbour (in fact, i live around 50 kilometers from poland borders), I am not familiar with the symbols in there :D So maybe a shield, but the bird woulk look right, and if made correctly it will not be overlaping Allied eagle. Hazza-the-Fox 01:15, February 21, 2012 (UTC) That could work- I figured if the Eagle doesn't work- I'll just stick some kind of star over the shield :/ VolteMetalic 14:56, February 21, 2012 (UTC): Ok :) Hazza-the-Fox 07:04, February 22, 2012 (UTC) And I just found another Polish design- a slightly different Teutonic Cross with an arm wielding a saber VolteMetalic 12:03, February 22, 2012 (UTC): Hmm... try it than. 'North American Federation' (north America, USA/Canada alliance/confederacy)- some kind of mish-mash of white-stars on a blue backdrop, probably with the Maple leaf- possibly. This is probably the hardest one to figure out- the only thing I know is there needs to be lots of stars and blue! :P VolteMetalic 11:56, February 20, 2012 (UTC): :D Take the American flag, and add the white field under the stars with the red Maple leaf :ú So the stripes will be filling one (larger) side. Hazza-the-Fox 01:15, February 21, 2012 (UTC) That could work; I also figured, as the Red-and-white stripes in the US flag only symbolize the 13 original colonies (who are represented by the stars anyway)- we could always cut them as an aesthetic-only feature- and work with the stars.. I'm getting a few ideas.... VolteMetalic 14:56, February 21, 2012 (UTC): No, that will take out the interesting part from the flag. It will be hard to recognize it :) Hazza-the-Fox 07:04, February 22, 2012 (UTC) I definitely want to keep the stripes- though they can be in a more abstract order (I thought, perhaps a red bar in the middle with the maple leaf center, and stripes above and below- on both sides are blue with stars? VolteMetalic 12:03, February 22, 2012 (UTC): Sorry, I didnt understood that :D Hazza-the-Fox 13:25, February 22, 2012 (UTC) HArd to explain- I'll put up some concept... 'Turkey' (Turkey-controlled East-mediterranian, Egypt and Syria)- A tricky one, because the Turkish flag has always been RED. Interestingly, the Pan-Arab flags specifically depict Egypt and Syria as green stars- so I was thinking the Turkish cresent on the left, with two green stars depicting the other nations to its right- the backdrop could be bands (perhaps a Turkish-red top/bottom border with a white middle? VolteMetalic 11:56, February 20, 2012 (UTC): Maybe use of blue and yellow, with these green stars? :D And the white "moon". Ad for name, it may be Turkey, which now controls former Soviet countires where only governemnt was communistic, but people accepted Turkey as their "leader". Hazza-the-Fox 01:15, February 21, 2012 (UTC) Sounds good also. I was thinking perhaps the moon and stars could even be white- but both have green borders? (if we put a white background in the middle). VolteMetalic 14:56, February 21, 2012 (UTC): Maybe? Hazza-the-Fox 07:04, February 22, 2012 (UTC) (still trying designs) 'Russia' (USSR territories minus annexed Europe and Manchuria)- Believe it or not this one is quite tricky- as it needs to be different from the general Soviet flag; Some kind of arrangement of the star, Hammer-and-sickle, or possibly the PsiCorps logo could work- for EITHER. VolteMetalic 11:56, February 20, 2012 (UTC): The standard Soviet flag could be used, but adding something to it would be appropriate. What is the logo of PsiCorps? Maybe Yuri's logo under the hammer and sickle? Hazza-the-Fox 01:15, February 21, 2012 (UTC) I had something like that worked out- one of two designs (both probably red- although some aqua could go in); #Hammer and Sickle in middle, to its left, is Yuri's (PsiCorps) logo, and to its right, communist star #Tiny PsiCorps logo on top-left, Hammer-and-sickle-with-star design (like the real Soviet Russian flag) a bit more center-right. VolteMetalic 14:56, February 21, 2012 (UTC): I guess the hammer and sickle at the center, and Yuri's logo at top left corner. Hazza-the-Fox 07:04, February 22, 2012 (UTC) Cool- I'll try it out. 'China' Ok- got them uploaded- I figured I'd use that 'blue sun' image (is actually a white sun over a blue backdrop- and in my version, surrounded by a gold ring) with the red backdrop similar to what the Chinese the nationalists used (before Taiwan took it)- and maybe incorporate the 5-gold-stars from the modern Chinese flag around it. Basically, which one is best? VolteMetalic 14:56, February 21, 2012 (UTC): I see what are you trying, but I must stop you. The blue sun was used by democratic Chinese. It is nonsense that coomunist party would incorporate the symbol of their enemies into their flag. its like Soviets will have Allied eagle in their symbol once they win (if they will). Hazza-the-Fox 07:04, February 22, 2012 (UTC) No problem- I'm not sure what else to use though- Note that the history is that the countries may not necessarily become authoritarian- but grew socialist sympathies and movements to rebel against German and Japan post-war occupation (as these countries never last the war- they instead lost their conquests to rebellions). And after which, formed very similar alliances to historical Soviet alliances for defense of their sovereignty. Eventually they picked sides with Russia and started to get swallowed up in Yuri's tyranny, while the Allied countries fell into Kane's- naturally, both putting on acts still pretending to be people/democratic and retaining the symbolism (much like North Korea's own name insists :P). Still- best pick a new logo anyway- problem is I'm not sure what (especially as it could potentially be a huge split in history pushing the flags- I generally veered to more classic designs)... There is the modern PRC flag (5 stars, all-red), some alt proposals (like Mao's preferred 'yellow river' version- though the original author didn't like it for symbolic reasons). Any ideas? VolteMetalic 12:03, February 22, 2012 (UTC): Hmmm... red field, with 5 red stars outlined by yellow... and some symbol of communism or socialism. Hazza-the-Fox 13:40, February 22, 2012 (UTC) No probs- see what I can do 'France' Technically, this includes all of French-run Sahara (Nor-west Africa), and possibly, merged with Spain and Portugal for support. No idea what to do here. Probably some international symbol or classic Spainish cross with Fleur de Lis? (those being stronger symbols- but a little too old-fashioned and tacky maybe) Namewise, it could mention being West Med, or East-Atlantic Alliance/Treaty/Confederation.... evem "French NATO" or something perhaps Actually- that gives me an idea- perhaps a 4-point compass as the center-piece (NATO style) and a Fleur De Lis in the top-left corner? VolteMetalic 14:56, February 21, 2012 (UTC): I think France can be independent, maybe with Belgium. Spain and Portugal wouldnt be included possibly. Hazza-the-Fox 07:04, February 22, 2012 (UTC) So just France and its African territories? VolteMetalic 12:03, February 22, 2012 (UTC): Yup. 'Oslo Group' Includes Norway, Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Netherlands and Belgium as the main participants. This is going to be a tough one, as there are so many countries involved. Like France's alliance, an international symbol? Blue with a circle of stars? I thought of a horizontal strike with a circle in the middle (a bit close to Sami I agree)- though it may overlap what I may do for Ukraine. VolteMetalic 14:56, February 21, 2012 (UTC): I guess it would be mostly white and blue, as white would resemble the snowy terrain of Scandinavia. Also to note, you cna include a symbol of some rune, as in Scandinavia there was North Mythology. Maybe Thor's hammer in the flag, in the circle which is surrounded by stars, and maybe coming few "star beams" out from the circle. Hazza-the-Fox 07:35, February 22, 2012 (UTC) By the way, noticing some wierd © thing preventing your post showing as clearly (something similar happened to some of mine). Sounds good! What exactly are the 'star beams'? (you mean like the Japanese rising sun's beams of light)? VolteMetalic 12:03, February 22, 2012 (UTC): No idea what that C is :D Nevermind. Beams...I said it bad, I meant tips of the star :D Hazza-the-Fox 13:40, February 22, 2012 (UTC) Got it! VolteMetalic 09:15, February 23, 2012 (UTC): XD 'Vietnam' Actually now includes much of annexed south-east asia taken over by Vietnam; So includes Phillipines, all of former Indochina, and parts of Malasia and Indonesia. I figured the flag could be unified North/South (so the large yellow star on a red backdrop, with several thin yellow stripes cutting through- possibly becoming red as they overlap- or not) VolteMetalic 14:56, February 21, 2012 (UTC): I would use purely flag of North Vietnam as leading member of this "coalition", or as it controls it all now. Not neccesarily everything needs to be "mergedů when one side takes over the country, like current Vientam. You will dont find any symbol from the ARVN. :) Hazza-the-Fox 07:04, February 22, 2012 (UTC) Good point- North Vietnam it is- on the flipside, it could again be another great confederacy of SE Asian states that joined together and gradually repelled Imperial Japan in the 40s. VolteMetalic 12:03, February 22, 2012 (UTC): Yup. Hazza-the-Fox 13:40, February 22, 2012 (UTC) Yup for North Vietnam or for the broader confederacy? VolteMetalic 09:15, February 23, 2012 (UTC): For broader confederacy led by Vietnam :D 'Brazil' ' ' Hazza-the-Fox 07:10, February 21, 2012 (UTC) I thought keep the basics- green flag, yellow diamond, blue circle- but perhaps a different detail inside (I think the real Brazillian flag has a complex picture of constellations or something- so a simpler bigger single star may be an option) VolteMetalic 14:56, February 21, 2012 (UTC): Isnt there the "Southern Star" in it? Hazza-the-Fox 07:04, February 22, 2012 (UTC) Possibly- though I've never been able to get a close enough look at it, I can tell you from inital glances that it doesn't so much depict a few stars as abroad night skyline! VolteMetalic 12:03, February 22, 2012 (UTC): This is the image of the Southern Cross star constelation :) Hazza-the-Fox 13:29, February 22, 2012 (UTC) That's the Southern Cross constellation we use too- only we Australians (and Oceanians) had the good sense to not include every other star in the sky too :P VolteMetalic 09:15, February 23, 2012 (UTC): :D 'Libya' Hazza-the-Fox 07:29, February 22, 2012 (UTC) Another tough one- as the only flags I know were of the Monarchy (green black and red I think). I think that flag is being re-adopted by the new government as a placeholder in the post-gaddaffi era- and of course, the Gaddaffi-era one. VolteMetalic 12:03, February 22, 2012 (UTC): Probably this one? Btw, I found that Gaddaffi has the same birthdate like me :D Hazza-the-Fox 13:28, February 22, 2012 (UTC) Hehe, ouch! :P VolteMetalic 09:15, February 23, 2012 (UTC): Pretty funny :D My brother shares birthday with Hirohito, really funny XD Hazza-the-Fox 12:09, February 23, 2012 (UTC) Wow! Sadly my birthday doesn't coincide with anything :/ By the way- I'll start getting around to the flags eiher tomorow or day after ;) 'REVISED' list Our National units are as follows: (the nations listed are 'remaining' nations in the story- who may not necessarily be playable. ALLIED *'M-COM'- Australia *'Centurion'- US/Canada *'Prism Tank'- Japan *'Nashorn'- Germany *'Chrono Relay'- Oslo Group *'Battle Fortress'- Turkey *'Hurricane'- UK *'Grand Cannon'- France *'Atlas'- Brazil SOVIET *'Crazy Ivan'- Ukraine *'Desolator'- Poland *'Tesla Tank'- Czechoslovakia *'Grinder-Magnetron'- Korea *'Nuke Truck'- Libya *'Mastermind'- Russia *'Cricket Siege Hopper'- China *'Fallout Fort'- Vietnam *'(Nuclear Aircraft)'- Cuba With the likely nations or multi-national alliances being (with suggested mergers regarding tactical resource-pooling only- though they can each definitely be stand-alone): ALLIED *North America Alliance (USA, Canada) *Turkey *Brazil *Great Britain (and Ireland) *Oslo Group (name of the alliance of Allied Scandinavia, Holland and Belgium) *France (with Morocco and Algeria) *Greater Germany Alliance (Germany, Austria, possibly even Switzerland helping) *Japan *ANZAC Alliance (Australia, New Zealand, New Guinea). SOVIETS *Russia (including Kazakstan, and most of Asia) *Poland *Czechoslovakia *Libya *China (with Mongolia) *Korea *Vietnam *Cuba *with countless other allies including Argentina, Columbia, Somalia to choose from also Thoughts? VolteMetalic 14:42, November 27, 2011 (UTC): Ok, my thoughts. ALLIES *M-COM may be Australia's. Or ANZAC as you call it :D *Centurion for Canada. *Prism Tank... will think about it, but probably UK. *Nashorn is German, or the Greater Germanic Alliance :) (Germanic will more imply it is more than Germany). *Chrono-Relay may be good for Netherlands, which may be in ... moment, its laready part of Oslo Group :P So for Oslo Group. *Battle Fortress for Turkey, as they are closest to Soviets. *Hurricane for USA. *Grand Cannon for France. SOVIETS *Crazy Ivan... maybe Ukraine? *Desolator for Iraq I guess *Tesla Tank maybe if not Russia, maybe for Czechoslovakia, we are really great inventors :) *Grinder-Magnetron would be for ... I am not sure. *Nuke Truck for Libya *Mastermind... this is very hard, but probably Russia *Cricket Siege Hopper for China *Fallout Fort probably for North Korea (or Korea) Crazy Ivan and Grinder-Magnetron are the major problem. And for the countries. Denmark may be part of Oslo Group or Greater Germanic Alliance. And Switzerlands for GGA Hazza-the-Fox 23:45, November 27, 2011 (UTC) ALLIED: Those sound good (though I realized we may have to merge Canada/USA for Centurion, and give the Hurricane to either the British or Japanese- as the Japanese were left out (but rather important for the story map)- with the Prism Tank going to the other (UK or Japanese). SOVIETS: We'll definitely need one for CUBA, and we probably aught to have one for Poland (Grinder-Magnetron should work nicely). Iraq could be a possibility; though in this timeline they may have been Allied (but already conquered), so I'm not sure yet. The rest sound pretty good! VolteMetalic 00:24, November 28, 2011 (UTC) ALLIES Oh, crap! I forgot USA and Canada are merged :P So than I would keep Hurricane for USA/Canada and Prism Tank for UK, and Centurion give to Brazil instead... unless the Flying Fortress will be Brazil, than Centurion may be given somewhere to Europe... maybe Switzerland (which may be than independent), or Greece. Also reminds me that there are no Naval National on both sides. Than it would be Spanish or Italian. I didnt included Japan on purpose :) I cant shake the idea of Empire of the Rising Sun. SOVIETS Poland doesnt seems to me good enough to have something as advanecd as Grinder-Magnetron. But maybe... *Fallout Fort to Poland *Grinder-Magnetron may be than Korean Desolator and Cuba... problem with Cuba is that it is small and not as advanced as anyone, very distant from Soviet Union and close to Allies. If Cuba may have something, it would be some sort of ship, aerial unit or some sort of large (but chunky and rusty) missile artilelry, firing ICBMs of some sorts. Maybe the missing Naval National for Cuba? Like kamikaze-ship? Desoaltor may be trained by Vietnam, thought it looks strange compared to their guerilla warfare, compared to large suit of Desolator. Hazza-the-Fox 01:11, November 28, 2011 (UTC) Yes it gets very complicated: The idea of the plot somewhat is that the respective nations grew to be as powerful as The Empire of the Rising Sun, Generals USA and China, Greater Germany (modern strength in the world similar to WW2) etc; but somehow, Yuri being in charge of the USSR tipped the balance horribly against them, so they all came together to form a more bizarre version of the Allies- that strangely fuses all of these powers together, while Yuri, his USSR and China got to work pooling their brains together against them in turn. So the Allies are somewhat an 'unholy alliance' of about 3-4 CNC-style individual super-powers, and the Soviets are likewise a fusion of Yuri, Red Alert series Soviets, and Generals China. For the Soviets nations, it is also a tough one; *Cuba is in real life a small nation, whose notoriety mainly came from stockpiling dangerous long-range weapons for the Russians- so I think, bizarrely, one of the longer-ranged units (possibly even the Desolator), might suit- unless we add a ninth nation to each side (might be a good idea to fit more nations anyway, it seems) *Vietnam is known for Guerilla warfare, and also for some of the most sohpisticated anti-bombing fortifications ever seen (huge tunnel networks)- so I thought they would even do well with the Fallout Fort (which could have its 'eject garrison' feature modified to eject them outside any garrisonable structure under your control, rather than itself- which woudl add a nice Guerilla warfare tangent on top of all its other functions and weaponry ;)) That aside, a naval nation *might* work, though it could work against us (useless in most maps with little water, too dominant in maps with water). Alternatively, we could easily throw in an extra air unit for each side... or an extra artillery unit- plenty of options (note we now have 4 national ground vehicles and only 1 aircraft per side). Also note we have yet to include a flame-based air unit for Allies (which could sweep targets with flamethrowers like aircraft in WW2, and drop napalm bombs), nor have we yet used a nuclear/toxic artillery piece or aircraft yet (outside possible Heroic bonuses for some of them) VolteMetalic 08:53, November 28, 2011 (UTC): Hmm... Cuba... the only option is the aerial or artillery unit. New unit. Hmm... so Fallout Fort to Vietnam, and Desolator to Poland? It may goes well with Austria's and Germany's hate to nuclear energy :P I was thinking of new national unit in the air. For Allies probably the Flying Fortress, but than what may Soviets has? Tesla or Magnet Fighter? :P Hazza-the-Fox 23:46, November 28, 2011 (UTC) Seems that way for Cuba; That Desolator allocation would work VERY well (and a nice point about Germany/Austria and Nuclear Energy too)! That aside, I think the new Desolator would do well in Poland too. That could do well- alternatively, the Allies could get a new fighter jet unit as their national (they only have one so far). Actually- perhaps, it could be a Napalm fighter (flamethrowers for strafe-runs against ground, and Napalm Bombs as a secondary attack). Obviously, horribly weak against air superiority fighters, but fairly good against slower aircraft like Airships. I think a Magnet might be a bit of a bad idea for a light aircraft fighter :P, and a bit too similar to the new Kirov as a heavier aircraft would go (unless- it were some Floating Disk replacement (read- not itself a disk- but some aircraft that can do similar things) or alternatively, something that could leap down and pick up vehicles if the engine allows)... Also, things like a Tesla- or alternatively, EMP, or dropping waste cannisters to contaminate an area (plays on the Cuban Missile Crisis somewhat) could work too. VolteMetalic 11:01, November 29, 2011 (UTC): Fighter with flamethrower... before it attacks its already kilometer away :) But Napalm Bomber can work, but beside the anti-infantry role it needs something other. No, Kirov uses magnetism only to paralyze, I mean to use it offensively to damage the enemy :) For Cuba...I was always kind of against the Tesla plane, because it dont has any ground and the Tesla coils coming from it will look strange. And EMP looks like something too advanced for Cuba :P But the Toxic Plane sounds good... And, what about it will be firing 2 long-range missiles with the toxic waste, like a Radiation Missile. It will be firing them from longer distance (like an aerial artillery), but is really slow so it can quickly caught by fighters which will deal with it? Hazza-the-Fox 12:14, November 29, 2011 (UTC) Hey I have you know some people actually did try to use flamethrowers on planes in WW2! (whether it worked may be another story) :P It could always be a drone itself making crop-duster runs- but doesn't matter... I think Napalm is an obvious element for the fighter! Yep- must agree I was against the Tesla Plane, I don't actually like it either (seems too advaced- plus we've established that mobile Tesla generators can only make short-ranged attacks- so either the plane is short-ranged, or it is long-ranged and would look bizarre and out of place). With a magnet in its own right, it would need to be a huge aircraft to be able to use it without accidentally pulling itself towards the ground; But I agree with a potential artillery craft. I was thinking (and this idea probably won't work- but we could alternatively have some kind of STOL bomb-runner- no, that would require a runway structure)- let us continue talking stats for the siege aircraft (and for that matter, what it would look like)! VolteMetalic 13:59, November 29, 2011 (UTC): Never heard of such attempt :) Exactly. Depends on. It can be some kind of modified civil plane fitted with two large missiles on the wings close to the hull, or it could be military plane, with the same layout of missiles. Think of a cargo plane like Herculer with sharper nose and wings, two tubo engines (maybe propellers) with two missiles. Something like this: http://www.moddb.com/members/jason-zombolt/images/soviet-fighter-bomber#imagebox just with smaller engines farer from the hull, with the long missiles. Hazza-the-Fox 21:54, November 29, 2011 (UTC) Looks like a STOL plane it does :P. An alternative is that this plane is a heavy fighter craft specializing only in anti-ground bombing attacks by and firing out radioactive munitions (after all, the Soviets only get one fighter so far- and it isn't quite so geared for bombing runs- leaving a position open for the national to fill)... Also, updated the list somewhat (also, we could probably compress/box the old discussion too) VolteMetalic 08:04, November 30, 2011 (UTC): Sure, it will be STOL :) And I agree that it may be a small plane, like MiG, but I would leave the long-range missiles, so it can safely bombard enemy from distance :) And Mastermind, it is Russian :) Didnt we? Or you want Russia to have Grinder-Magnetron? Hazza-the-Fox 08:58, November 30, 2011 (UTC) Agreed- so it's a heavy bomber that fits in the fighter bay and has longish-ranged anti-ground missiles with some kind of nuclear-based warheads (either full-atomic, or waste munitions- that could potentially upgrade to full atomic at heroic) Mastermind- Doh! Sorry, that was a typo; I intended to have Russia get the Mastermind, and Korea get the Magnetron- must have accidentally written over the Russian entry- fixed! On another note, I think the Grinder Magnetron should damage ships, just as it would structures (ships being too heavy to lift- so it rips bits off). Also sorted out the Australia/Turkey thing (although both unit alternatives made sense for either country- a country with land borders with the USSR would have more use out of a big slow APC/mobile-fort than an island nation. Which leaves if Korea is indeed the best nation for the Magnetron, and Vietnam the best for the Fallout Fort? (I personally think the FF for Vietnam would play quite well into history- and Korea using a long-range weapon also makes sense). VolteMetalic 11:08, November 30, 2011 (UTC): Not exactly when I think about it. It may be aircraft larger than MiG, but not too much, but still carry two missiles with the waste munition, and Heroic being full-atomic sounds great. That could work, damaging ships. My thought exactly :) I was telling that back than that Movile Fortress should be in Turkey because they are the closest to the enemy, so they need something MASSIVE to defend itself :) Yes, I think this could work. FF for Vietnam, and GM to Korea. Hazza-the-Fox 11:37, November 30, 2011 (UTC) Sounds good. Also sounds good. Very good point! Awesome- on that note, we should probably start thinking of the FF's stats and appearances. Also- on a further note, we could probably consider whether we aught to consider some slight (very mild) international aesthetics for both factions (as many of the Soviet factions are Asian- yet at the same time, would not look out of place in Libya or Cuba either). Likewise with the Allies- the could possibly incorporate some very mild Empire of the Rising Sun architecture (although not much- more along the lines of the white anime-style cyberpunk that Empire captured incorporated into the more concrete US-ish style stuff. Not excluding some WW2 German style stuff as well. VolteMetalic 13:51, November 30, 2011 (UTC): Hmm... the question of designs of the faction's structures would be discussed in another topic :) Hazza-the-Fox 13:52, November 30, 2011 (UTC) No probs Hazza-the-Fox 02:23, January 28, 2012 (UTC) Hmm, still wondering whether to switch Poland and Ukraine's Desolator and Crazy Ivan (depends how appropriate or not it would be to give the Chernobyl disaster nation the nuclear-powered trooper). On the flipside, Ukraine and Turkey are likely to be the main enemies- so it depends what would make a nice nemesis for the Battle Fortress (technically, both the Ivan and Desolator make quite a nice dichotomy: The ivan can plant bombs on it or mines for it- while the Desolator's radiation is useless against it (but not his gun, necessarily) Older discussion Here I will quickly describe what the nations are and what purpose they serve, a bit about the theme of nations, and then list some so far included nations. Ok, as we already know "Nations" like in Red Alert 2, refers to the subfactions of the Allies and Soviets side respecitvely. Each nation is simply an Allied or Soviet side that adds an additional bonus unit. Keeping in mind that the two major sides have their distinct advantages and shortcomings- regarding their differences of capacity to organize sneak attacks, hit-and-run, precision-attack, inaccurate-area-attack, long-range skirmish, short-range heavy assault, siege, distracting, expendable cannon fodder, vital specialist units, aggressive-charge-into-the-fray, line-holding, line-breaking, disruptive, , etc; So far, both sides gets 7 nations each. The role of the nation (and its unit) is to simply complement the existing capabities the faction normally represents- or fills a role that the side generally doesn't normally excel at. In other words, the national unit is intended as an equalizer to counteract their own side's flaws. National units can afford to be very strong or very problematic; They are the kind of units that players would divert more time and energy utilizing than a normal unit, or emphasise much more than other units. They are intended, however, to fill in a very specific role, so they aren't just the sole investment. A national unit can afford to be a little too strong- just so long as no nation effectively counters another nation. In terms of theme- we could use different countries (going to the trouble of picking which nations get what unit) or possibly for the Soviets, differen army corps (though this would be much harder). ---- Defining nations: Allies would definitely get the USA, UK, France and Germany as obvious ones- Canada might fit the Centurion unit (due to similarity to the real-life Trojan infantry armor- invented by a Canadian man). Otherwise, we'd have no trouble picking powerful nations that would be afraid of the Soviet Union. Soviets would obviously get Russia and Cuba. There are also plenty of countries that would side with the USSR- or are also communist to choose from. The tricky part is defining which nation gets what (and not necessarily based on which nations were in Red Alert 2 and what units they were assigned) ---- Nations-by-unit, and what role they serve (note only referring to confirmed ones so far- additional units are up for discussion) ALLIES Mirage Commando/M-COM: stealth ambush and heavy close-range assault units. Also double as Operatives/infiltrators (but cannot swim) Centurion: Armoured heavy infantry with deployable machinegun. Fires continuously, providing suppressive fire (most Allied vehicles have a very slow reload time- so this helps) Battle Fortress: A sturdy, aggressive 'charge-into-the-fray' unit normally typical of the Soviet faction, but virtually non-existent in the Allied arsenal. Brings line-breaking and close-range heavy assault capabilities- and houses infantry that can fight from inside as a bonus. Chrono Siege Relay: Provides distractive fire (in a similar way the V5 does): Teleports bombs anywhere you have sight range, that, upon finishing warping in, will explode. Can be shot at by any ground units (not dogs). Prism Tank: Further compliments skirmishing ability by adding some long-range fire support; also helps for hard-to-reach places (if we can get the beam refraction to work). Hypersonic Bomber*- further accentuates Allied Hit-and-run air tactics. Also provides some area damage in its strike, unlike the normally-precision-based attacks of other allied air units. Grand Cannon- gives a huge defensive boost to make launching sneak attacks and hit-and-runs much easier. Might also add paradrop to the side that gets this gun, simply to cover the lack of an actual unit. SOVIETS Crazy Ivan**- substantiates the Soviet's rather lacking infiltration/assault capabilities and sapping abilities- also good at geurella tactics and leaving mines. Desolator- gives the Soviets a boost in long-range skirmishing, potentially rivalling even sniper units Nuke Truck- gives the Soviets a very potent high-speed assault unit Tesla Tank- generally enhances the aggressive charge-in attack method. Does extreme damage at short ranges. Grinder-Magnetron '''(GriMag for short)- used as an anti-skirmisher vehicle, for picking out those pesky support-fire vehicles (and compliments your own psychic units). '''Mastermind- the ultimate of the slow-heavy assault vehicle and short-range assault vehicle. Also provides excellent distractive qualities by converting masses of enemy units- also a form of suicide unit. Cricket Siege Hopper- the answer to the Soviet's need for some more hit-and-run, siege and skirmishing abilities. A light, speedy, evasive unit. :- * can't decide which name (between Nightwing and Hurricane) is more appropriate for the Hypersonic Bomber, and Prism Gunship respectively. In the meantime, I'm just referring to them by their technical name to avoid confusion. :- ** Decided Ivans were better as the national unit than Pariahs for many reasons. 1-It is easier to balance that an expensive close-range infantry unit not wearing a suit of armor can be buffed a little too much to compensate for his weaknesses, while the Pariahs can afford to be a little too weak (if they are drawing fire, they're doing a good job). This becomes especially important to considering his other abilities like minelaying. 2- considering 1, it is also more balanced IF we managed to get some kind of cloning ability happening. 2 Ivans for the price of 1 is unfair- but as a national it's ok. 2 Pariahs might actually make them potentially threatening. 3-The enemy are kinda already expecting hordes of cannon fodder to draw fire away- they might not be expecting minefields and infiltrators so much- which plays to the Ivan's further advantage 4- theme-wise, Pariahs pose a consistent reminder of Yuri as a nasty, tyrannical dictator as a unit that shows up more often 5- And lets not forget- fans hailing from the (most likely Eurasian) nation we pick for this Soviet faction that will get assigned a baddass demolition man would hardly complain- not quite as much if we associated them with a mindless ex-con suicide bomber! :P That's all I can think of at the moment- what do you think? VolteMetalic 07:49, August 29, 2011 (UTC): First of all, didnt you said you will describe it "quickly"? :P It is all pretty well-thought, nothing else to tell to this. ---- So, the nations, hmm... We need seven or eight. Hmm... I will write now which nations would be most prominent, and what unit they would have. ALLIES United States - Supersonic Bomber - They are the main producers of the aerial forces of the Allied Nations (Raptor, Comanche, Blackhawk) and are the best in development of them. Supersonic Bomber is the latest invention with the highest technology US has in their possesion, along with some more from other countries. Great Britain - Mirage Commando - Britain is a proud country which trains one of the best men in the world, and Mirage Commandos are the best of the best. Also, their advanced technology is a result of extensive development of metamaterials*, which originates right from England. France - Grand Cannon** - France was always more centered for defense and use of long-range weapons. It is no wonder that the biggest gun emplacement is in their possesion, as Grand Cannons are the significant part of their defensive lines, and not only theirs. Germany - Nashorn SPG*** - As the main producer of armoured vehicles, Germany has developed Nashorn as a dedicated tank hunter with greater fire range than Soviet tanks, capable of destroying Maulers with just few shots before they can answer, or even switch to bombardment mode to destroy tanks and structures from even greater distance. Netherlands - Chrono Siege Relay - As a home for FutureTech, Netherlands with great support of Professor Einstein are the main developers of Chronotechnology, and their latest invention is Chrono Siege Relay, which can destroy targets from safety while erasing enemies' existence from the face of the world. Canada - Centurion - Canada has been developing Trojan infantry armor for quite some time, and now when its ready they give it to Centurions, which has a burden of duty towards the Allied Nations on their shoulders; to protect peace and democracy against communism. India - Battle Fortress - Even it is not as technologically and economically advanced nation as others, India is key nation for its location and large population. Because of their close distance to communist China, it is antural they are the creators of the bulkiest unit in Allied Nations; Battle Fortress. Greece - Prism Tank - Inspired by "Archimedes' Solar Ray" weapon from ancient times, Greece has developed the Prism Technology on this basis. Prism Tower, Orbital Prism Array are their creations used by them, but Prism Tank is only theirs and for its high firepower they are proud of it. {C}SOVIETS Russia - Tesla Tank - The strongest of the socialistic republics, Russia has developed Tesla Coils which they also put on infantry battlesuits, thoguht weaker, and now they achieved to them on tank chassis while keeping the same power of the defense. Tesla Tank is a masterpiece of Russian engineering, great at frying infantry and tanks alike. China - Cricket Siege Hopper - China experiemnts with the mechanical legs as propulsion, creating Terror Drones. Fuhrer development resulted in migration of their mechanical leg propulsion, Russian helicopter and their howitzer, created walking helicopter, Cricket Siege Hopper. Libya - Overmind - Thought it is strange, Overmind originates from Libya where Yuri never have been. Local PsiCorps created this behemoth to control the whole cities of Africa, forcing them to support their cause in Yuri's name. Iraq - Desolator - To destroy the Allied Israel, Iraq is willing to use any means, even to contaminate the area by their Desolators. For long time Iraq extensively worked on X-ray weapons, which resulted in many "death areas" in the deserts of Iraq, where nothing can survive. North Korea - Fallout Fort**** - North Korea has well-equipped and trained military, which can fight with anyone in balanced fight. To defend borders against their southern neighbours, Koreans builded Fallout Forts where they can store their soldiers to defend while eradicating enemy infantry with RAD gun. Ukraine - Grinder-Magnetron - Ukraine became a major scientific nation of the Soviet Union, and magnetic technology originates from here. Outfitting a large bulldozer with magnet harpoon and grinding belt created Grinder-Magnetron, dreaful monster which can grinde anything in its way. Georgia - Crazy Ivan - In Georgia, recently conquered by workers' revolution, has been always many strogn people, and many people with passion for explosives. Soviets combined these two factors, and created bomb specialists called "Crazy Ivans", which are a silent nightmares for Allied soldiers on their guard duties, as well as for tank crew. Cuba - Nuke Truck - With a deliveries of nuke bombs from Russia, Cuba in preparations of invasion of USA started placing the nuclear devices on large dump trucks, called Nuke Bomb Trucks, which are driven by fanatics willing to put their lives into foundation of the great socialist revolution. :- * Metamaterials are materials capable of mimicing the background, virtually being a "active stealth technology". :- ** Grand Cannon, I agree that para drop would be fitting, but I suggest that they will be at veteran state, as a "elite force". :- *** Suggestion for Allies :) Tank Destroyer with good anti-armour capability, but horrible against infantry and structures. In this mode has greater fire range than tanks, but not as much as artillery. Can switch to howitzer mode, in which it becomes artillery, the anri-armour stength remains, but is weaker, and is strogner against structures too. In both modes it is worst against infantry (as tank mode uses kinetic shells, as howitzer mode HE shells). Weak armour, fixed gun (so it must rotate the whole tank to fire on target, gun can only go up and down). :- **** Suggestion for Soviets as defense. Fort which can store inside 5-6 soldiers whichc an fire from inside, flamethrowers, radiation and other "bunkerbuster-like" weapons dont works on it. Radiation-resistant and thick. Has a RAD gun on the roof, which can fire into greater distances, but not as much as V5 or Grand Cannon. The gun can be replaced by somethign else, but the other stats should remain. And like France, North Korea would also have para drop with their "elite NKVD" infantry (normal Conscripts at veteran leve). For Supersonic Bomber/Prism Gunship, I think they shoudl stay as they are now. Hurricane Supersonic Bomber and Nightwing Gunship. But maybe Nightwing would be remaned to Spectre, or Spectre Gunship would be present as support power unit, which will bombard the area with howitzer, autocannons and gatling cannons :) That reminds me, can you draw a non-playable units, mainly cargo planes/bombers? Probably Soviet Badger and Allied Hercules, or based on them. And possibly Spectre :D Hazza-the-Fox 11:17, August 30, 2011 (UTC)Hazza-the-Fox Lol! Sorry bout that- at least I can assure you I have little left to add now! Firstly, regarding the Supersonic Bomber being the Hurricane and the Prism Gunship being nightwing- I reckon in that case we should keep em as is (Spectre I think is better left to the regular definition of the ship- as I'm certain that if allied engineers took a real-life specter and added laser-based weaponry they'd most likely rename it, after all):P Paradrops definitely SHOULD drop elite-level infantry- good thinking! Nations Allies- Sounds pretty good to me! I was thinking possibly Brazil or Turkey, but India and Greece sound fairly logical too! I actually just realized something that should have been obvious- Allies do not have one single heavy general-range direct-combat vehicle of any sort (but no shortage of long-range skirmish and siege units). So I was thinking it might be interesting if the German heavy tank was simply a very large, heavy tank? Roughly half-way between a Mauler and a Devastator (which itself doesn't really function as much like a tank as a ridiculously powerful and heavily-armoured howitzer). Just a single barrel (fairly longer range than Mauler- but far shorter than Devastators, Prism Tanks etc), but can't attack infanty very much because it's simply too big (same problem Devastator has). But it might have some large smokescreen or defensive deploy function to compensate? That way, by putting something like this into the Allied arsenal, it would be a nice all-round unit to head off enemy charges, rather than an alternative compliment to the generally long-ranged evasive ranks that the Prism Tank serves. Soviets- sounds pretty good too; Cricket I was thinking for China also. I was actually thinking of the Russians getting the Mastermind (insecurity ensuring mind control remains the exclusive knowledge of the capital), Libya getting the nuke truck and Cuba (or an East European state) getting the Tesla Tank (being that it's a more 'daring' and 'drastic' unit that rubs off as something built up from imported components). Yours sound just as good though. Fallout Bunker sounds pretty good (as much as I'm missing my multi-function mini-dominator defense) :P All in all, good ideas I can't really find much to nitpick. VolteMetalic 11:34, August 30, 2011 (UTC): Yeah, probably like this :D Spectre would be a normal gunship like in ZH, also support power. But I dont know if RA3 enables it at all, hmm... I have also thinked about Brazil having Battle Fortress, but I said myself "When its that big unit, how can it be transported from there?" When you mention it, Turkey would replace India, because it is also on the borders with Soviets at Georgia and close to Russia :) And Greece, it was the last one I thought, took me quite long till I decided on that :D Hmm... And cant it be a heavy tank destroyer like Jagdtiger? With all the specifications you listed, only that it will be tank destroyer with fixed gun? So it will have a weakness in turning rate? :) Soviets were really hard. For Mastermind, I have considered Yugoslavia, or Romania (Transylvania), because in last Soviet mission in Yuri's Revenge Yuri had his last stronghold there (Yugoslavia), like he comes from there. But Libya is kind of fixed to be major Soviet nation. Pretty much Crazy Ivan messes it all :D When it will be Pariah it would be like this: * Cuba - Pariah * Libya - Nuke Truck * Yugoslavia/Romania - Mastermind I choose Georgia for Ivan because Ivan is clearly a Russia guy, and Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania or Belarus arent that big, and Mongolia isnt "Russian" at all :D And Tesla Tank is totally Russian, cant see it anywhere else :) Hazza-the-Fox 15:03, August 30, 2011 (UTC)Hazza-the-Fox Another issue of the spectre is how we rate a gunship armed with howitzers against a massive floating battery bristling with lasers... Good point with Brazil: Turkey I reckon is a good idea because Turkey has persistently been quite a dangerous country throughout history- and would likely continue to be extremely powerful in an alternate reality; I just realized with the fortress we'd need to think of a reason why it's so hardy compared to other Allied stuff (aside from being extremely big, so the same armor would be added in greater bulk- handy considering its cargo is a small crew of passengers and a tank of napalm) For the Jagtiger- depends. So far the Allies have a lot of evasive attack vehicles (Kodiak) and lightweight hard-hitting fixed-gun support guns (MARS, Sonic Tank, Prism Tank). Theme-wise, it doesn't matter so much that the German vehicle is a true tank or a tank-destroyer- but I think function-wise, it would compliment best as a rough, heavy combat vehicle that can take some hits, than a support piece (being a low-profile tank-destroyer would of course explain why it can take so much enemy fire). Hehe, sorry bout that (Ivan)- but I reckon its for the best he's a national. I always thought even though Tesla is a very Russian-style technology, it could easily have been circulated among neighboring states like Poland, Ukraine, Georgia, who may have quickly attached it to improvised chassis- while Yuri would be too paranoid to allow his center for PsiCorps the be based much further than Siberia. Either way, we can still talk about these. VolteMetalic 15:24, August 30, 2011 (UTC): As a support power unit. While Nightwing is precision gunship, capable of precisely hitting targets, it cant quickly kill large groups of units for the lasers. Howitzer of Spectre, with the autocannons and machine guns, can does more damage on larger areas, for the HE shells, making big explosions. Also fire rate is greater, because prism weapons needs time to recharge, even Nightwing has several projectors. Spectre can constantly without stopping bombard the area. And Spectre can be more armored to withstand incoming enemy AA fire of flaks. As it is Support Power unit, it can be stronger in few ways, because you can use it only after some time :) Yup Lets see... The armor plating is one reason. Now you must count the engines (yes, one is not enough to power it), which are often the heaviest piece of tank (excluding chassis). The compartment for passengers (it can take some room), a reserves of fuel, both for engiens and for flamethrower. The historical flame tanks like OT-34 were not able to "breath fire" for too long, their fuel reserves quickly get thin, so Fortress needs a large fuel tanks for flamethrower, and both engines. And full fuel tank can be very heavy :) Hmm.. Jagdtiger, or Nashorn as I will call it, would serve this purpose. It is a hard-hitter with its larger gun (Jagdtiger had 128mm gun, enough to tear T-34-85 apart, or a bigger guns, howitzers or heavy mortars) and heavy armour can take a lot of hit, even by Devastator. For support, it can be behind Kodiaks and snipe out Maulers and Flak Raiders with one or two shots (or more, depends on their veterancy and how strong the vehicles in the mod you want to be) Yeah, this is a real problem. When it will be in Romania, it could be explained Yuri originates from there, and there are natural psychics. But of course, you cna always create a country in the middle of Siberia, personally lead by Yuri, being it more like a fortress than a country :D Hazza-the-Fox 05:38, August 31, 2011 (UTC)Hazza-the-Fox That may be the case- but as Prism can 'spread' too by refractions, it may be a little more difficult to imply it would be weaker at these either. Another consideration is that Prism is potentially a deadlier weapon than most ballistic weapons- but in most cases, handicapped by the smaller reactors such as those on the tanks- but on a massive aircraft, it is essentially a flying powerplant. Sounds good I think actually the Jagtiger Nashorn should actually have more average range- what I was getting at before was that the Allies are already heavily into sniping vehicles, but have very little to head off enemy units in direct damage. Against a Prism Tank, it would pose a very similar unit, only with augmented damage against different targets. But by making it more middle-range, but extremely powerful, it becomes its own unit with a clear set of advantages and disadvantages over the other National units, that go directly into the functional kind. Siberia (as a non-sovereign 'sector') or Romania- that would work nicely! VolteMetalic 12:20, August 31, 2011 (UTC): ... I talk about "SUPPORT POWER" unit, not an actual builadable unit. You will designate the area, it will fly there and circle around, you will give it commands on what to fire, it will be firing there, and when timer is up it will fly away. Ok, so be it :) It will be a head-on heavy unit which can be good in fighting with Devastators. But its size, we should consider it more. I am not sure about it, because Devastator is like moving house, and I cant imagine that Allies would make something of that size, or only part of it... but there were Maus and E-100, but they werent also that large actually, E-100 was only enlarged E-75/Tiger II. Romania than :) But than Libya is falling out from it, or Cuba. Depends on who will have Nuke Trucks. {C}Hazza-the-Fox 14:55, August 31, 2011 (UTC)Hazza-the-Fox I hear ya- but it's implying that the buildable unit armed with a jumbo-reactor and bristling with high-tech lasers is actually far less powerful and affordable than a standard Specter. :P Well, there is a huge margain between the size of a Mauler and the size of a Devastator (the first is not THAT much larger than a typical heavy tank- the other probably the size of two freight trucks); being the size of a Maus, or even just a Tiger would be fine! Also, by being a head-on tank, it gives an interesting dichotomy that reverses the stakes on the Soviets- instead of them sending in heavy units to charge the 'sniper' allied vehicles, the German Tank-Destoryers will be charging the skirmishing Devastators! Romania for which one? :P I think Mastermind is a very close-to-home kind of development, Tesla Tanks are a 'front-line East-Europe satelite state' kind of idea, Nuke trucks would probably be good for Libya. Though that raises some problems for Cuba (they could possibly get the fallout bunker though). Bleh- we can easily think more about em.... By the way- considering this is alternate history (WW2, and possibly WW1 never occuring, and the Soviet expansion having a different outcome) we should make sure which nations we have would have still likely existed! On that note, I will get around to making a story thread... VolteMetalic 19:23, August 31, 2011 (UTC): Not exactly. Only that high-tech gunship is far more fragile due to exactly the high-tech it carries :D And so more expensive. Will you send one Nightwing to destroy key targets in enemy base with good AA defense, or send in more classical Spectre, which can have much more armour with pretty much same strength, which is cheaper and so more expendable? :D Than YESS!!! But I want to be more instrumental in its development, its like my toy and baby :D ... Hmm... Ok, so which country in Eastern Europe would be technologically capable of creating Tesla Tank, one of the most complicated creations of Soviet Union? ... Czechoslovakia :) I dont want to sound like idiot, but CSR is even today very great when it takes to technology,a nd we are also really great in making things. I think that we (Czechoslovakia) can be able to make Tesla Tank :) So than Mastermind could go to Russia, and Libya can have Nuke Truck... For Cuba, maybe we can solve it by different way. What about making another set of National Units, for naval warfare? :D There are infantry, vehicles, aircrafts, even defense, so why not also ships? Than Cuba would have small and speedy ship which will act as RA2 Terrorist and Nuke Truck; Demo Boat :D:D:D Another suicide unit, but now for naval warfare. Maybe armed with small machine gun. And Allies... dont know what they would have as National, but it would belong to Brazil :) Actually, WW1 in RA series existed, because Einstein shifted the timeline in 1924 by erasing Hitler, ergo 6 years after Great War. But yes, you are right about that. Maybe there would be mentions of the 1946-1953 Second World War, so RA1. Only mentions of that :) Hazza-the-Fox 02:38, September 1, 2011 (UTC)Hazza-the-Fox If it were two or three specters I could probably believe it a little more- but I don't think anyone would go to the trouble of making a high-tech alternative that had weaker combat ability (sans possible infinite power generated, and ability to shoot down missiles). The alternative is to make the Specter a regular (or have a bomber) and have the Nightwing as some kind of 'generals power' that simultanously bombards enemy bases and shoots down enemy missiles). But that would depreciate the presence of Prism a little too much (as it leaves us with only two structures, and a national unit). No probs for the German destroyer- be interested to hear/see what form you come up with. Czechoslovakia sounds good! After all, a country that can bring the goods (like technological know-how) to the table is worth bringing in! (I am itching for an Australian side- as we do have the infantry to throw in- though the Centurion is definitely Canadian- the Mirage is a possibiltiy (note that Australian infantry are one of the highest trained in the world- and to top it off, the Australia has our own SAS, basically the same as the British one- which might transfer another unit to the British control). Cuba naval units- I did think about the possibiltiy of naval, but I thought it's better that either way, all countries still have a land-based special unit/structure, in case the map doesn't have any (or enough) water ;). Age Of Empires 2 had nations with a sea-based unit- but they also had a land-based unit on top. Something to think about Alternatively, we could add a Dune "Eye in the Sky" suicide aircraft? (it was pretty cool- it floats in the air, you simply position it over the heads of the target and detonate- a shower of shrapnel falls down, damaging everything around it (which could in turn be applied to Flak artillery weapons); To top it off, the standard suicide bomber infantry unit (in our case, the Pariah) is actually the 'pilot'- who is ejected before self-destruct to be parachuted down onto the target- and when lands is effectively an ordinary suicide bomber. What Brazil woudl get to head them off, would be an interesting proposition (the only thing left with the Allies is probably another air unit- possibly either a drone fighter with flamethrowers (use like a crop-duster); or, of course, a flying fortress. Oh- I forgot to mention that this mod operates on another alt timeline; most likely, Einstein finally devised a way to erase both Hitler and Stalin simultaneously without simply creating two alternate dimensions each or a space-time disaster. He succeeds, and history is far better overall. A few short wars involving a German uprising against the Paris Treaty (resulting in a quick diplomatic resolve), and some wars against the spread of communism (the USSR is less organized and fails to win any armed conflicts- but still takes many more countries than it normally did). The only downside is that the tensions between the USSR and Allies are far stronger, with a heavier arms race building up- and without Stalin, Yuri gained control of the USSR and reformed it into a more integrated federation of states- and the Allies in turn were more susceptible to desperate measures (including, possibly, unwittingly appointing Kane to a senior position and accepting some less-than-ethical wartime recommendations). Hence why the mod is called "Zero". I was also thinking of both sides' different organizational makeup warranting slightly altered names, like the "Global Alliance" and "Greater Union of Socialist States" or something VolteMetalic 08:36, September 1, 2011 (UTC): Well, I didnt include Spectre as buildable unit, because engine wont allow it to circle in the circle around the target. In Uprising Harbinger Gunship is capable of circling around the target while bombarding it with its Proton Colliders. But when you take it into normal RA3, there is no way of making that, so Harbingers end up simply flying around and firing when the target is in range. When it will be Support Power unit, I think it should be done, when it will be using some kind of better ammunition, to conpensate for Nightwing's firepower. Great :D I am already forming it in mind, might draw it soon, but the quality would be... heh :P Yeah, Australia... when we will give them MC, Britain will fall from it, and its one of the founding nations :P Ah, yes, I didnt thought about that. A suicide plane, that would work, also would make sense as they are neighbours with USA, they can bombard them with these! :D I am not sure if it would be codeable, but I think it will. And paradropping another suicide nit, Pariah, it will be even nastier!!! :D Flying fortress... hmm... what about transformable ship? That you will build a flying ship, and when above water plain it can land and becobe a normal ship? With different sets of weapons when on water or in air? Like while flying it would be anti-air unit with 4-5 AA guns, and when lands it will be only anti-surface. But I cant think of any weapon for it while on water. Aha... but still there can be a previous generation of vehicles, inspired by RA1, like Allied Light and Medium Tanks (light -> M4 Sherman, M24 Chaffe, medium -> Pz6 Tiger, Leopard) or Soviet Heavy and Mammoth Tank (heavy -> double-barreled T-55, T-72, mammoth -> single/double-barreled/ with KV/IS-like chassis with rocket launchers and heavy AA machine gun on roof) :D As a predecessors of current hardware. But it would wait for now. Moment, you want Kane to be Allied man? But he was Stalin's advisor. And for names, leave them as Allied (Democratic) Nations and Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, to make some order in it for the players :D Hazza-the-Fox 12:29, September 1, 2011 (UTC)Hazza-the-Fox A fleet of these would still look pretty cool! Anyway- something to look into. Britain could always get the Prism Tank? I can't really take credit for the suicide aircraft- it is based very closely on a unit from another Westwood CNC-type game- but all the same, it would fit into the Soviet arsenal hand-in-glove! Plus, the shrapnel shower would pose an interesting artillery attack from a standard unit or defense (I originally considered it for the defensive Flak Cannon- being too big and heavy to be pointed down, it simply shoots its shells up and over their heads- detonating them above and showering them in shrapnel- the suicide aircraft simply brings this anywhere on the map! The only consideration is whether we make it a jet (harder to control, but fast)- or some floating aircraft (airship or chopper- and it simply lingers mid-air when stationary, till told to move or self-destruct. Alternatively, it could be a runway-bomber that can convert into a sea-plane bomber (and thus only needs to land in the water, or near a naval shipyard to re-arm, rather than needing runway space); its definitely a good idea and worth talking about! (this might sound crazy, but this might warrant another topic to discuss the 'newer' units not put into a niche yet). The generation of vehicles is kinda the idea- these vehicles went down a similar, but slightly different evolutionary path than the other Red Alert vehicles (and subsequently, Red Alert 2 vehicles) have- the idea is that many alt forms for their tanks quickly found themselves obsolete or the production faciltiies were destroyed- and the vehicles listed here are the only ones still standing (or in service). Yes indeed! I felt it a nice touch that the nastiest part of the alternate timeline is that because the Soviet Union was so disorganized, Kane couldn't assume control without drawing attention- and since Yuri took control, there is no longer any opportunity to manipulate any commanders like in RA1- and as a result, simply played upon the Allies' fear of Yuri to instead assume secret control of them instead- and thus the world is in more danger than ever before because not only are the Soviets run directly by one of the nastiest, most dangerous men in the world- but the only hope of stopping his global conquest happens to be largely under the control of the OTHER nastiest, most dangerous man in the world- and thus makes the Allied campaign a tricky situation as they know that every victory against the Soviets makes Kane stronger (posing a surprise final mission, along with some opportunities to have some allied-vs-allied action)- and for the Soviets, poses an interesting game of cat-and-mouse trying to outfox Kane (and in many ways, both sides are effectively trying to save the world from the other maniac- sort of). On another note, we should probably have a thread about special abilities (or hopeful special abilities). And of course I will soon do a backstory thread too! VolteMetalic 13:33, September 1, 2011 (UTC): Hmm... probably. MC for Australia, Prism Tank for Great Britain. Why not make it a proppeler aircraft, loaded with bombs? It would be even more logical for Cuba, to build a simple propeller aircraft than a jet :D You were talking about Brazil unit? About the bomber? Hmm... what about merging B-52 Stratofortress with Howard Hughes' H-4 Hercules "Spruce Goose"? A large bomber with huge payload of bombs for carpet bombing capable of landing on water to evade enemy aircrafts. Maybe with some AA turrets to defend (quite strong), but still not strong enough to fend off a whole squadron of enemy MiGs. Well, I will give an example on Paradox. Lore-wise, Allied Nations has many MBTs. Mastiff Tank, Grizzly Tank, Guardian Tank, Crusader Tank and Predator Tank. In-game, Allies has only one of these, Guardian Tank, because it is the most common, produced and up-to-date tank of those. Mastiff Tank is veteran from WW2 (de facto Tiger I), now serving in minor countries of Allied Nations (in Allied Reserves) which cant afford Guardians, Grizzly Tank is also in reserves and comes from the inter-war period, being more modern than Mastiff (M60 Patton + RA2 Grizzly), Crusader Tank is US-only tank, which is pretty much equal to Guardian, but is used only by USA, having pretty much 50-50 ratio of Guardians and Crusaders, and Predator is newest Allied tank fielded, but only Germany, its producer, uses it because it is harder to construct and only Germany makes them, which is only half of it under Allied control. So in the end Guardian is the main battle tank of Allies and the only one buildable by Allies in the mod. In this case, Kodiak Tank would be the "main" main battle tank of Allies, but still there can be several other tanks used by other countries, but are not so common and in that number as Kodiaks :D For example, persoanlly I call Allied Medium Tank "Protector" as its the same as Guardian, both being "defending persons" :P Ah, I see :D But no one knows what Kane really is, that he is not human and long many thousands years :D You mean the Support Powers like "Carpet Bombing"? Yeah, that could be created, but again, for both factions together or each faction separated? Ok! :D {C}Hazza-the-Fox 14:48, September 1, 2011 (UTC)Hazza-the-Fox Propeller aircraft is fine (I just meant that either the suicide craft is either one that hovers in the air like a chopper- or one that is either constantly moving, or grounded, like the jets). I still reckon the Pariah inside is still a good idea for it. That would be a pretty cool idea for Brazil- I think it would ultimately depend on what form of attack the Allies currently lack in their air units; For tanks, I actually intend to have previous generations of tanks present in both sides (based pretty much on previous Red Alert/CNC vehicles)- but as obsolete models that have proven early on to not be able to withstand the new technology they are up against. Particularly the Allies, who at the start of the war had an abundance of light tanks, medium tanks, MBTs and even heavy tanks- all of which proved able to head off previous Soviet heavy armor; sadly against the new Maulers they were quickly wiped out. The only vehicles remaining are the Kodiak (a multi-national engineered light MBT/tank-destroyer hybrid; that needed no less than a hitech gun with extreme armor-piercing rounds, space-age carbon-based synthetic poly-armor, and because it's simply shorter than the average tank and harder to hit). Aside from that, only the long-range assault vehicles, new energy-weapon vehicles, and a handful of secret German and other highly specialized combat vehicles seemed to be holding the line. Of course, plenty of rebel groups are stuck with previous-generation stuff, and will try to turn these against you (which provides a good opportunity to show precisely the capabilities and limits of the new units against the old stuff- retaining most of their old stats). For the naming- admittedly many of these names are place-holders; especially considering that two Allied infantry are temporarily "Guardian" and "Air Defender"; and it does actually get confusing when a unit's name doesn't sound exactly right and fitting its own role (like StarCraft 2's Marauders- a name I keep calling the Helions- while the REAL Marauder units I always call 'boomers' or 'thumpers'- don't ask). Kane- exactly! I thought it would prove to be an extra twist if Yuri actually knows this about Kane to some extent, and tries to incorporate it into his psychic propaganda to turn the Allies against themselves (and a shocking discovery by the heroes on the Allied side) I think support powers thread should be for both factions- again, it seems to be easier to weigh up what support powers should do when both side's capabilities are measured against the other. VolteMetalic 15:10, September 1, 2011 (UTC): They will have Pariah. When the plane detonates, or before detonating, Pariah will jump out on parachute and when on land can finish the work. Great! :D I see :) Than as I said previously, Allies would have a light tank, based on Sherman and Chaffe tanks and RA1 LT, medium tank named "Protector Tank", based on Pz6 Tiger I and Leopard 2, which will be quite good in defenses (hence Protector), and Soviets would have a double-barreled heavy tank based on RA1 HT, T-55 and T-72. For other units, V2 would be something like RA2 V3, an old truck, enlarged, with long and thin missile on the back, Allied arty would have something like M40 Long Tom, with some changes, also a light/medium tank destroyer based on StuG3 and Jagdpanther, and Soviets an amphibious IFV/tank based on PT-76 and BMP-1/2. D But its hard to prove that a man isnt a human, and is old as humanity :D Ok. Hazza-the-Fox 00:34, September 2, 2011 (UTC)Hazza-the-Fox Excellent Something like that; it works as these are more 60s, 80s era tanks, while this setting is going into more the modern era (and Yuri and Kane haven't aged much- but technology is massively skewed, so some areas are high-tech, while other areas of thinking are still stuck in the 1940s) Yuri doesn't have to prove Kane is not human- he merely has to press this into his psychic propaganda. ;) VolteMetalic 09:27, September 2, 2011 (UTC): Sounds fine. Yeah, but it will affect only his people :P No? Hazza-the-Fox 13:57, September 2, 2011 (UTC)Hazza-the-Fox Well he would definitely try to broadcast it to his enemies too of course (taking over radio stations, psychic beacons, etc) VolteMetalic 19:28, September 2, 2011 (UTC): Yeah, but who will believe him? :P VolteMetalic 23:53, September 2, 2011 (UTC): Here is my concept of the Nashorn image Its only from the side because I didnt tried to make it in "3D view". Explanation on what is what I will type later. Btw, it took me around 15 minutes to make. {C}Hazza-the-Fox 04:16, September 3, 2011 (UTC)Hazza-the-Fox Probably nobody will believe Yuri- but it's worth a try ;) Very nice that Nashorn! A beefier version of the rough RA2 tank-destroyer layout mixed with what looks a bit like a modern Austrian (Ostereich) SK-105 (which is partly the inspiration of the Kodiak)! I actually don't have much recommendations at all actually! One question- can the barrel swivel a tiny bit on its axis? VolteMetalic 08:42, September 3, 2011 (UTC): Its more based on StuG E-100 Krokodil :P And Jagdpanther :D And yes, it can. Hazza-the-Fox 08:53, September 4, 2011 (UTC)Hazza-the-Fox Excellent- (just need to know how- if the gun barrel sticks out of a socket, or if the entire back mechanism swerves side-to-side) we'll need to see it from the front too of course;